Podcast Transcript

Welcome to the Mobile App Flipping Podcast. This is your host, Yohann Taieb.
My goal is to help you get the most out of risk-killing apps. Whether you’re already a full-time entrepreneur or trying to get a business going, this podcast is for you. We will be interviewing professionals that are already doing app risk-killing for a living. We will also invite source code sellers to get to learn about what they have to offer. And finally, we will talk to industry experts to learn how to become a productive at Flipping Apps. And now, without further ado, let’s get started.
Today I have an amazing, amazing guest. His name is Doron David. I don’t know if you heard about Doron, but he’s very active in the risk-killing community and especially on the Facebook.
So if you just go on any groups on Facebook, you’ll get to see him somewhere there for sure.
So welcome Doron.

Oh, thank you very much. I’m glad to be here.

My pleasure. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What’s your background and how did you end up into this mobile app risk-killing world?

Okay, well, I don’t know how to put it down. I’m 40 years old. I’m married with three kids and I have a day job like probably most of the people who listened to the podcast. And three years ago, I decided to look for other sources of income as well as pursuing my dream that I had for a year back then of making something of my own specifically a game.
And I stumble upon an ad online by Trace Smith that I believe many of the listeners probably by now know who he is. And he was basically advertising about a free webinar, and which I went to online and I listened to it. And I was able to get enough information to give me a start. And since then, I’ve been producing several games. The first one that I did, which is usually everybody, when they start, they concentrate on their first app or game, and they love it. They didn’t get so much time. It took me about three to four months to develop it.
I was obviously pretty inexperienced in doing that, but I came from a background of architecture where I do project managing. So I was able to utilize that skill in managing a project.
I didn’t know much about it. I became familiar with the site ODesk, where you outsource everything, which I was stunned that it was such a website exist. I didn’t know that. And I found a very quite talented developer, the very nice person, which now I know back then was inexperienced himself. So you can imagine two inexperienced people in the world of apps trying to come up with a product. And that’s really it. So three months I made it through to the deadline that I said to myself, which was a Christmas of a year, three years ago. And the app became live. And since then, I developed more. I’ve learned more how to handle a production of an app, how to make it.
About a year ago, six, eight months ago, actually, I came to know about the risking world, which amazed me to find out that you can actually pay not a lot of money to get the source code,
something ready made, you just change your graphics and you’re up and running. And I’ve been doing that since then. And I do plan on producing more unique apps in the near future, but
rescuing is almost all what I am about at a moment.

Yeah, definitely. And I’m pretty sure that you’re not the only one. And many people, especially now, they don’t want to waste much time recreating everything from scratch. I mean, what’s the point? You can already get some great source code out there. That’s already doing most of the functionality you already need.
So, you know, why go the way of getting a developer to have to start from scratch?

Right. So, definitely it’s a big time saver and money saver.

Yep, definitely.

So, I’ve looked at your apps online on iTunes under the name of Doron David. And you have really a lot of them and many different categories. I’ve seen some stuff in games. Of course,
the majority is there. I’ve seen some stuff also in the social networking. And you know, so like entertainment as well.

Right. So, how many apps and games do you have so far?

Well, I have about 40 of them. Okay. And which obviously that’s include the majority of his risk scheme by now. And I have maybe four more that are waiting for a review.

Okay.

And hopefully they’ll get released soon. I have to say that most of my games I’ve produced in the last year. So, when I started, I was really messing around with it, like learning a little bit techniques or how to handle Xcode with a non-programmer background. I don’t have a background in in programming. And I got into it more aggressively, like I said, about a year ago. And that’s when I started producing everything. Also, what I wanted to mention is that I do have some experience using a graphic design software, which obviously helps you save the money of outsourcing the graphic design.

Definitely.

So, yeah. So, I was able to really…

So, you can cut the cost there.

Exactly. And, you know, those things add up even though, even if you pay, let’s say, $200, for example, for graphic design, let’s say you produce 10 games, it’s already $2,000 right there.
Which again, over time you’ll make the money back, but you know, it’s nice when you can save that money.

Yes, definitely. And by the way, I don’t know if you want to learn more or actually check out how I read myself. I have a free course on UWI where you could check how I use graphic design
tools such as Photoshop or Illustrator, and how to make decent game graphics for non-artists.
So, you know, it’s kind of like teaching you all the tips and tricks. So, definitely go check it out. It only takes an hour and a half or so. And you learn all my tips to create… I’m actually creating graphics for a candy-crush clone there. So, it’s on you to me, just type my name, Yohann Taieb, or look for tips and tricks for game graphics. You’ll find me there.

Yep. Yep.

All right. So, do you mention any download numbers? I mean, with so many apps, you must accelerate your velocity. So, you must have a lot of downloads by now.

Well, yeah, considering that I have 40 of them, and I started about three years ago, I have about 640,000 downloads to date total.

Excellent.

Yeah, that’s pretty nice. But, you know, you have to understand, and I’m sure you do, but if your game or app does not retain the users, it’s really not of much of a value.
You know, if it’s one download and then the user doesn’t use it, but it is indeed a nice number of downloads.

Yes, absolutely.

As a matter of fact, some of the games for myself that make the most money are not the one that have the most downloads. It’s weird to say, but that’s how it is. I have some, you know, only a few downloads is enough to make money since the user keeps using it. So, that’s the good thing about it. But, yes, so definitely like, you know, the download numbers is
more of a vain number in the sense of saying, you know, I have millions, I have hundreds of thousands or so. But, you know, it’s a good way to see how active you are and, you know,
how much people like what you produce. Because, I got to say, I’ve looked at your graphics, and also, all your graphics are pretty good there, especially I’ve seen the latest games,
things are getting better for you.

So, what is it that you did there? Did you get a new graphic designer or something like that?

In a specific game, are you referring to?

I looked at, you know, like, time wise, I’ve seen that over time your game graphics just kept improving. Is that the same person that’s doing the graphics?

Well, some of them I do them and some of them I was lucky enough to find talented graphic designers. There were two that were actually in the United States at a relative affordable price.

Oh, interesting.

Call it this way. Yeah, and they’re quite talented. And, yeah, it’s just finding the right person for each task. That’s basically what it boils down to.

Okay, good. Now, did you have any weird stories to share that you had on Odesk or any other website? Maybe Elance?

I can probably, out of my mind, just thinking there was once I’ve wanted to create a calculator for architects. Since I’m in the architecture field, I wanted to get into competition there and produce a calculator. And you have to imagine a calculator is relatively something very simple to design in terms of graphics. And I hired somebody on Odesk that his art seems pretty interesting. But when his first draft came through, it really raised a red flag since it didn’t really look anything like graphics in his portfolio. It was much, much lower quality in terms of the design than what he had in his portfolio.
I’m sure I had other interesting stories, but that’s probably the one that I can think of at the moment.

So what did you do then? Did you keep going and just take the graphics the way they are?

No, I did not because it didn’t really comply with what I was looking for. I just decided to pay a little bit more for a decent design, hire somebody else.
However, the actual app I didn’t complete it because it just time passed by and there were certain situations where actually limited from actually releasing the app. So unfortunately, I didn’t produce the app, but that’s okay. I did end up with nice graphics that I stored a moment in case I would decide to use it in a future app. It’s never over.

You still have the graphics.

Exactly. Some did on the road. Even though now you have the re-skimming bug. So you put many or other projects inside while you’re riding that train.

Exactly, definitely.

Let’s try to focus on one of the games you have re-skinned. Is there anyone you’d like to focus on that you’ve re-skinned any source code that you’ve relied on and gave you decent return investment?

Well, you know what? Not necessarily this and maybe it is nice, but I would like to actually concentrate on the easiest one by far, which was the first one. That’s the Slot machine code by that Carter Thomas had on his website.

Yes, I saw it on your iTunes. Now, something very interesting about it is that you actually have modified the source code if I understand, right?

That is correct. I took that and I hired a developer. I do have a team of like two, three for the developers that I used for different purposes and one of them actually fit the bill
for what I needed. But one of the things, for example, the code by itself was not bad. It was very basic.

Let’s explain what it does for the people that are not familiar with that code. So go ahead, just talk in general about what the Slot machine is about.

The Slot machine is really as simple as it is. I’m sure by now everybody is familiar with what Slot is, but it’s really one screen with mainly three buttons. One of them is a bet, one credit, one of them is bet max of five credits or however you set it in the code and then the spin button. And the results, if you hit basically a good result, you have the ability to collect the credits, the coins back into your credit, which the code itself disables you from doing that unless you pay through an inept for payout, basically.

Right. So basically you can play for free and whenever you want to keep playing at some point, you basically have to pay, right?

That is correct. That’s exactly it. And one thing that I found, and like I said, the code is very basic and it fit the bill. It was relatively cheap to buy, which I think it was about 99 dollars or something like that if I remember correctly. Exactly. And the one thing that I found that I needed to improve is when you hit first on the payout button, before you pay, it takes you to a screen that gives you a little bit more information about payout. And there, if I remember, there was the game center button. And if you, yeah, now if you pay to use that, the next time you hit the payout button, you just get the credits collected back and that main screen doesn’t any longer have a button for a game center.

Oh, I see.

So what I did, one of the things that I did is add the button to the main screen. Also another improvement that I did is show ads at certain intervals. And I released another version with multi-player through using the next peer SDK.

Yeah, I saw that. That’s pretty neat. Yeah. You added multi-player, which basically adds to the user retention. Excellent.

Exactly. Exactly. And one more thing, obviously, it’s just a couple more things, offering the user the ability to buy credits in packs. And also every time every that the user comes back to the app, he receives a pop-up that gives him three coins to use every day, additional coins.

Okay, which keeps the user coming back?

Exactly.

Excellent.

And that’s really the basic modification that I did to the code.

Excellent. So how did it work for you? Did you use your regular programmer and did you create the graphics yourself?

Exactly. That is correct. I created a graphic myself, I produced them, and then I hired a developer just to do the modification, which I don’t
think took that long, but when a week or two weeks, it took him.

So I mean, the source code was about $100. Now, how much extra did it cost you to add that programmer to modify the code?

It was probably about $50.

Oh, okay. It’s almost nothing.

It is almost nothing. It’s a good price. I hope the developer doesn’t hear us talking. But it comes down. It boils down to really negotiation and developer that you retain on a normal basis, you tip in, you add bonuses at some point. So they don’t mind actually doing it for those prices as long as you keep working with them.

Okay. Excellent. Now, was there any documentation or any type of walkthrough that came with the code?

Yeah. If I recall, there was some basic information that came with it, and I have to say, unless you’re familiar with Xcode or what to do, it was a little bit harder understanding what to
look for. But with Google searches, you can definitely find the answers. And I think since the Slot machine code was one of the first ones that was available, probably the owner of the code,
I don’t want to say anything bad, but the document that actually accompanied the code maybe was not as clear. But overall, since then, it has improved. You do receive documents with very
clear instructions.

Yes. Definitely. As time goes by, at the beginning, it was mostly targeted for programmers or for somebody that’s already in the industry.

Exactly.

But the thing is that now reskinning has been attracting a lot of people from the outside world. People that just want to start. And they have no apps or no games, just yet. And of course, everybody is trying to cut costs. And one quick way to cut the cost is to take Xcode and just use the app and try to to accompany yourself and publish it yourself.
So definitely, right there, that’s something that people could have improved on. And from an understanding now, most of the risk-inning source codes are getting better at doing this. Basically, you’re not thinking that people already know how to do things.

That is correct.

Yes. As a matter of fact, let me do my shameless plug here. I do have two classes on Udemy.com, one about creating a pinball game and one about creating a candy
crush clone and both come with a source code. And I teach people from zero to hero, basically.

That’s nice.

Yes. Let’s say you don’t know anything. You just got a brand new Mac. I teach you how to do everything, such as getting your license, how to open Xcode, how to get the source code in,
and how to change your graphics and sounds, and how to publish it to the app store. So the whole process. And I have lots of people that already knew how to do it. However, they wanted to
understand how to cut costs in the sense that sometimes when they talk to a programmer or a graphic designer, they want to make sure that they’re not getting financially abused in the
sense that, oh, this is going to take me a day, only going to take them half an hour or so.

Right.

Definitely it helps.

But when you look for graphic designers or even developers, what I do, I go to ODesk and I just publish the them looking for somebody. And then I interview at least three or four. And I asked them usually the same question. And one of them is how long is it going to take you? And you’ll see if there’s a consistency and answers between developers or graphic designers. Of course, it also depends on the experience that they have. And a more experienced developer or graphic designer can produce something faster. But over time, you’ll have more experience and you’ll be able to tell.

Yes, definitely. As a matter of fact, there’s the blog from Ellen Hayley, which is chocolatelabs.gov, if I remember. And she’s asking every programmer how long it takes them to integrate chartboost at network. And if anyone says anything above 30 minutes, then for her, it’s a big red flag right there.

I actually asked the same question. I do ask this exact question because developers, this is something that every developer should know by now. And it’s not a mystery. So their answers should be a concrete answer. If somebody tells you three days that you already know, you don’t want to go with that person.

Yes, exactly.
So I do want to add one thing when we’re talking earlier about the document that supplements a code as even if document is not clear enough, the support that you
receive from the owner of the code is usually amazing. So if something is not clear, you just contact them and they obviously that they’re more than happy to help you.

Excellent. Even though things are getting harder and harder because now, let’s say in one of my previous podcasts, I think it was episode number six with Austin Church. And Austin is the owner of Bright Newt, which has a Viva Stampede or a mustache bash or things like that. And he’s just overwhelmed by emails and supports.

Yes.

He’s selling so many of them. And so he’s doing his best. But then maybe some time between you asking a question and him being able to reply.

Right then. I had the opportunity to listen to that podcast. And as he said, an email is nowadays is not the most efficient way of communication.

That’s right.

And for me, it’s mostly not because that I’m many people adore me and send me emails, it’s just because I receive too many of spam emails. And it’s just hard to take the time and look through.

I see
Yeah.

All right. So now, let’s talk about graphics. So if you modify them yourself, right?

That’s correct. Yes.

Very nice because I looked at them and they look very decent. So it’s interesting for someone who has no background in graphic design, even though you know how to…

Well, I did graduate. I had some graphic design degree, but back then when I had it, they were no computers. But I have to tell you that I did use and elected to mention that some of
the icons were designed by professionals on sites like Fiverr.

Okay.

There was a team. I don’t remember their name and I don’t know if they’re still there, but from Vietnam, that they designed amazing icons. And they said that they used clip arts and things like that. But it didn’t really matter as long as it really matched the theme of what you were trying to do. But you know, I got to be on some of the graphics that I actually implemented into my games. I searched for clip arts and I answered them.

Okay. Definitely. Yeah. There’s no problem with that. As a matter of fact, I do it myself. I don’t just use clip arts, but definitely there’s some nice clip art out there that they’re free or very cheap and they just do the job the right way.

Exactly.

Now, if you remember when it changed the name of those Vietnamese guys, I’ll put it on the show notes. Okay.

Okay. Definitely.

All right. So whenever you get those graphics, then after you need to use what tools do you use and how do you get the graphics to the right size or you know, or get the right shape?

Okay. So I do use Photoshop.

Okay.

And that’s my main tool. But there’s another tool of GIMP that is actually free for use.

Right. It’s like a grown up Photoshop.

And it’s a pretty decent tool. I tried it a couple of times. It’s a good tool, but the interface is a little bit different than Photoshop and it was slowing me down. So I just went back to
Photoshop since I had the own data and I’ve been using it for quite a few years.

Okay. Okay. So that’s all the question I wanted to ask for you for the graphics. Now, how about sounds and audio effects? Did you change them or you just use the one that came with the game?

Well, specifically the slot machine, I believe that I kept the sounds like many others that they’ve done it. Now, it depends on the theme. I’ve released a few of the slot machine codes, reskins. And some of them, I did change, for example, I’m looking here on iTunes just to remember like I’ve used a night’s theme, like a camel at night, I called it. And there I’ve used a
sound effects of people basically charging in a battle. So I did change the sounds in some of those reskins. Yes.

So how do you do with sounds that do you have any specific websites or you just look around?

No, again, the size like fiber, there’s another side that I like to use called soundrangers.com.

Soundrangers.com.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah, I use that one. I get many of my sounds from there.

Is this free there?

No, it’s not.

Oh, no, it’s not. It is a paid per download, I believe, that’s how it is. That’s at least how I’ve been using it.

Okay, so what’s the price range?

I’ll give us an idea. Well, it could range from let’s say a dollar or two dollars to just a simple sound effect up to maybe even forty nine dollars to a loopable audio track that maybe is a minute long.

Wow, that’s pretty.

But again, it does vary. Like I said, for sound effects, you can get something for two dollars and then and then if you pay more like I said, forty nine dollars or maybe higher than that or maybe lower than that, I don’t remember to be honest with you, but that’s the average price that you would pay there. Yes.

Okay, good. So do you have also like a nice background music? Because sometimes I’m looking for something original. You know, like let’s say I’m creating something that’s like a jungle, you know, like a jungle or something that’s like futuristic. Do you have all those type of themes there as well?

Well, I do look for all of my sounds mostly on some ranges. You know, I’ve tried to find the other sources that I liked online and I always end up on that site and I feel like I’m promoting them. I should contact them.

Yes, definitely. It should become an affiliate. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. But that’s the mostly the side that I use.

Yes. It’s been that you said that because quality is very important and I usually go on freesound.org, which is great. It has lots of, you know, like it says free sounds. However, the quality is not always there. And so definitely I’m always looking for some other websites where, you know, I don’t mind spending a couple of dollars here and there to get good sound effects.

Definitely. So thanks for the tip.

Sure.

All right. So now let’s talk about how many times have you used that source code and reused it to create different games with it?

Well, let me look here. I got to remember. Hold on a second. Just give me a second.

Sure, no problem.

Tell you there’s one, there’s two, three, four.

Wow. You’ve milked it, huh?

Yeah, I made four. Now, the one thing that it’s important that I do is I always release a pro and free version. So when I say four, it’s really eight.

Oh, okay.

And the reason is why? Because simply you monetize from each one separately.

Right. And that’s something that I always forget to do is I usually put my games as freemiums. And I always forget that sometimes, you know, you just want to put it as a paid app, you know,
and send extra way to get some visibility out there. Definitely.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. Now, I’m sure you don’t get that many downloads there, but do you still get some here and there with paid apps as well?

You know what? At the moment, I put most of my apps, if not all of them, on sale towards the holiday, just for people on sale, which means for a free download.

Okay.

Yes, yes. So I try to do towards a holiday season, just release everything as a free download. And that way, the freemium model, if I can call it this way, in this case, is that, you know,
the user is exposed, you expose users more to ads, basically, that way. Now, when I put the pro version for free for some time, I enable ads in it.

Okay.

And that’s a tip that I learned from actually Chad Mureta at the time.

Oh, how do you do that? So you can do that remotely or you just have to submit a new update?

No, no, you can do it remotely using a specific SDK that let you control it through a dashboard online, like, like a RevMob, for example, that you can pause the ads. So basically, when you release a pro version, a paid version, you have the ads disabled. And so people don’t see it. And then when you put it on sale for a little bit, you turn the ads on and that way you gain more revenue.

I never thought about that. That’s actually a very nice technique because what’s going on is that when your app is paid and you turn it for free, you actually, you automatically trigger all those bots online that would basically pick it up and say, hey, this app that was there was maybe for $99 or so is now for free. And that would basically entice people to buy it. So I like this technique. Very nice.

Yeah, yeah.

Thanks for the tips. Sure. No problem. That’s the tip of the day.

Yeah, definitely. Keep them coming. Okay. So now I’m just going to ask you some very generic questions. Is there any book you’d recommend for someone that’s starting or that’s maybe already in the app risk in industry?

Yeah. The Chad Mureta one mentioned this.

The app empire. Right?

The app empire and I know people before me recommend that also your last guest.

Austin church. Yes.

He also recommended the book AppSavvy, which I bought that before about app empire.

Okay. Is there any online resources you would recommend as well?

There’s many blogs. One of them is Carter Thomas, which I’m sure has useful information specifically to reskin. If I can recommend my own site actually, that’s okay. Sure.

So, Carter’s for this blog is bluecloudsolutions.com. Right?

That’s Carter Thomas. Yeah.

Okay. So, what’s your blog?

My blog is Icandevelopgames.com.

Okay.

It’s a blog that I started. I want to say about a year ago. I had quite a few friends that told me, hey, I don’t know how to develop a game. Can you help us give us some tips? And that’s just spark the idea. Hey, why not put that information available to everybody online? So, that’s really the site that I highly recommend. Obviously, I have also a YouTube channel that really show you how to do several things like, for example, setting up an app on iTunes or how to create a certificate that a developer requires from you in order to for him to be able to produce, for example, a test app for you to check. But the most important on my blog, what I do, I just teach you how to develop a game from scratch by example, but by taking an actual game that I do.

Okay. Hands on exactly.

Exactly. That’s exactly. That’s really the premise behind the site. Now, I’m thinking that I might actually enhance it more to show people how to reskin apps, which that might be something that will concentrate in the next few months.

Yeah. So definitely, that would definitely benefit our audience there. So you said, what’s the name of the website again?

Icandevelopgames.com

Got it. Icandevelopgames.com. All right. All right. So I believe you actually have a freebie for our audience, right?

That is correct. Yeah, definitely. Now, if our listener would go to the link,Icandevelopgames.com/appfresh. I will give them free of charge, a guide that I created some time and go on how to
select the best developers for any task. Now, that will be true for graphic designers or any contractor that you are planning to outsource too. It’s basically a method, a technique, or
how to sift through applicants specifically on ODesk or any outsource websites. It’s based on just my trial and error, my experience of what I went through. It can definitely help people
saving time and avoid any issues that may arise. Exactly.

You already had to go through.

Excellent. Right. That’s exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you. Very nice. So it’s on. Icandevelopgames.com, right?
/appfresh. Correct.

Correct. Got it. Also, I believe that you wanted to do some kind of a raffle, right?

Yeah, no, I’ve been thinking since I’m going into the risking more, I would like actually to embrace one person and do a hands-on with them. Actually, like a personal one-on-one guide in
them exactly.

One-on-one coaching. Exactly.

From scratch to produce that.

Okay. So how can we get an in touch review so we can enter to win to win this coaching?

Okay. So I will actually, for convenience sake, I will put that also on the same page, some information. But if you go to my Facebook page, which when you go to my app, you’ll see a link
a little bit below. If you scroll down straight to the Facebook page, it’s just going to be easy that way. Or you can go to the Facebook.com/icandevelopgames.
I’ll have a special post there asking about what the games that you are interested or apps, what kind of games or apps that you’re interested in developing. And if you comment on
there, I will select a lucky person to guide from that list of commenters.

Oh, excellent. Thanks. I appreciate it Doron. So I will add it to the show notes. So basically, we’ll go on Facebook.com/icandevelopgames and you will have some kind of a special
post there where anybody that’s listening could just add a comment there saying, what type of games or apps you would love to develop and how Doron is going to help you get to
the next level.

Exactly.

All right. Well, Doron, how do we get in touch with you now?

Well, the best way would be actually through Facebook to message me and then part of the reason, like I mentioned before, I receive many spam emails through my I can develop games blog,
something that obviously I hope to work better on security to eliminate that problem. So, just go to my Facebook page, message me there and I usually return, I respond within an hour
or if not even less.

Oh, okay, Doron. Well, thanks for everything. That’s been absolutely amazing. So we just hope to hear from you back and wish you lots of success for the games and apps to come.

Thank you very much and I really enjoy your podcast.

Thanks. It’s my pleasure as well that you one of our listeners as well. Okay, and one more thing I wanted to mention, Yohann, I’m actually in 2014, I’m going to work on a much bigger project actually, helping people reskin projects, something that is going to be huge. So people stay tuned and head over to my website to again, to Icandevelopgames.com/appfresh. I’ll write more about it there and 2014 is going to be a great year for that.

Okay, thank you. Thanks for listening to the mobile app flipping podcast. If you find this podcast interesting, please subscribe on iTunes and leave us a review and sharing is caring. So spread the word. You can also follow me on Twitter at Johan 305.
That’s yohann305. Also, come to appfresh.us, appfresh.us. You’ll find all the episodes, the show notes and resources to make you more productive. See you at the next episode.